--- Log opened Fri Jun 19 00:00:29 2009
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04:05 < ricky> hiemanshu: Hey, I saw you were asking about getting involved with websites here a few days back
04:06 < ricky> Can you make our meeting in 13 hours?  :-)
04:06 < hiemanshu> Yeah ricky
04:06 < hiemanshu> Sure
04:06 < ricky> Cool, I'm going off for a bit now, but I'll see you at the meeting
04:06 < hiemanshu> Sure
04:06 < ricky> Like I said, it'll be right in here 13 hours for now :-)
04:07 < hiemanshu> That will be around 11pm my time
04:07 < hiemanshu> will be here
04:07 < hiemanshu> ricky, how long do i wait before i get approved
04:07 < hiemanshu> ?
04:08  * nb may be at the meeting
04:09 < ricky> hiemanshu: Usually we approve people once they've helped out with some websites-related task, which could be anything
04:09 < hiemanshu> ricky, i am ready to help :)
04:10 < hiemanshu> I am a web developer for over 3 years
04:10 < ricky> Cool - this is the first meeting we've had in a while, so hoepfully a lot of tasks will come out of it
04:10 < hiemanshu> built many sites and other things
04:10  * nb is not sure how he got approved for web actually
04:10 < nb> but i'd like to get more involved
04:11 < ricky> hiemanshu: Cool, what languages and stuff are you familiar with, by the way?
04:12  * nb knows php
04:12 < hiemanshu> Well i know xHTML+CSS and PHP pretty good
04:12 < nb> although i dont think we use it much do we?
04:12 < nb> seems like fedora people like python a lot
04:12 < hiemanshu> I know a bit of python
04:13 < ricky> That's perfect - we use python all over the place in Fedora, including in the script we use to build the website
04:13 < nb> ricky, do we use php anywhere?
04:13  * ianweller points out mediawiki
04:14 < ricky> Not for most of the apps we develop ourselves, but we some PHP apps like mediawiki and zabbix, so it's always nice to have PHP people around
04:14 < nb> oh yeah true, i forgot mediawiki was php
04:14 < ricky> ianweller was working on a PHP mediawiki extension recently, for example
04:14 < nb> what time is the meeting?
04:14  * nb is off till monday, so hopefully can make it
04:14 < ricky> It's 17:00 UTC (13 hours from now)
04:14 < hiemanshu> I have developed a lot on MediaWiki
04:14 < nb> ricky, thanks, i forgot i could have just looked in email
04:18 < ricky> ianweller: hiemanshu has a lot of mediawiki/PHP experience if you ever need anything with that
04:18 < ricky> hiemanshu: ianweller is one of our main mediawiki guys
04:19 < hiemanshu> Oh thats nice
04:19 < hiemanshu> I just completed a MediaWiki site yesterday
04:23 < hiemanshu> We need to upgrade MediaWiki and PHP to better versions
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05:32 < onekopaka> hello
05:33 < ricky> Hey
05:33 < onekopaka> just confirming that there was an s in the channel name
05:34 < onekopaka> but I'll be 15 minutes late to tomorrow's meeting.
05:34 < onekopaka> about 15 minutes.
05:34 < ricky> Cool, we'll see you there
05:35 < onekopaka> at least I don't have to do it at school.
05:35 < onekopaka> because there I would have to go through my CGI-IRC install
05:35 < onekopaka> they sever IRC connections
05:35 < ricky> Blech
05:35 < ricky> Do they do it by port?
05:35 < onekopaka> unless!
05:35 < onekopaka> no
05:35 < ricky> Because Freenode listens on a bunch of other ports
05:35 < onekopaka> but if it's SSL
05:36 < onekopaka> is there SSL?
05:36 < ricky> Aw, freenode doesn't have SSL though :-(
05:36 < ricky> What I used to do in school is IRC through SSH
05:36 < onekopaka> I could do that too
05:36 < onekopaka> irssi
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05:36 < onekopaka> on my iPod =)
05:36 < ricky> Yup
05:37 < onekopaka> at least tomorrow is my last day of school until September
05:38 < onekopaka> bbl
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06:07 < onekopaka_away> back
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06:23 < onekopaka> how long is the f10 branch gonna be on the git repo?
06:23 < onekopaka> it's been 9 days since the last change to it and we're switched back to master on the production servers
06:26 < ricky> I was thinking of just leaving it there for history.
06:40 < onekopaka> hmm
06:40 < onekopaka> are we far from ever hitting space constraints?
06:42 < ricky> With git, you download the full history anyway, so that will always be saved.
06:43 < onekopaka> yeah.
06:43 < onekopaka> Mozilla's trying to save disk space. it's a very interesting discussion
06:43 < ricky> How are they going about doing that?
06:44 < onekopaka> deleting old builds
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06:44 < onekopaka> then people are saying "no we need the old builds to test regressions!"
06:45 < onekopaka> then they're trying to move them to servers that use the same disk!
06:45 < ricky> Hehe
06:45 < onekopaka> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.builds/browse_thread/thread/35449ab28f4ed2ed#
06:46  * onekopaka wonders why they're not just using the mailman archive system
06:46 < onekopaka> for the mailing list
06:46 < ricky> Yeah.
06:47 < onekopaka> "The disk behind archive.m.o is the same disk that we're wanting to clean
06:47 < onekopaka> up here. There's no distinction between archive.m.o and ftp.m.o any more
06:47 < onekopaka> because they use the same backend storage. "
06:48 < onekopaka> it's really funny.
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06:50 < onekopaka> the mailing lists I'm subscribed to
06:50 < onekopaka> webkit-dev has horrendous spelling / grammar errors 90% of the time
06:51 < onekopaka> so does mozilla-dev-builds..
06:51 < onekopaka> and then all those stupid emails from people who seem to think that because they see the Fedora Test Page that we own the site...
06:52 < onekopaka> at least those have decreased  though
06:54 < ricky> Yea
06:54 < onekopaka> Should I go through Websites/Tasks on the wiki and turn URLs that link to the wiki into wikilinks?
06:54 < ricky> **Yeah
06:54 < ricky> Sure, that'd be good
06:54 < hiemanshu> ricky, is there a tasks list or something?
06:55 < onekopaka> hiemanshu: yep it's http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks
06:55 < onekopaka> but I'm cleaning it up
06:55 < hiemanshu> onekopaka, I can help you a little
06:56 < onekopaka> hold on
06:56 < onekopaka> just about done with my first skimming
06:56 < ricky> Hah, I said I'd go to bed what, 2 hours ago?
06:56  * ricky really goes now, good night
06:57 < onekopaka> hiemanshu: mmkay I got all links to the wiki turned into wikilinks
06:57 < onekopaka> I really should get to bed
06:57 < onekopaka> but!
06:58 < onekopaka> I refuse
06:58 < onekopaka> I can survive the less than half school day with 5hrs of sleep
07:06 < hiemanshu> I sleep for 3-5 hours daily
07:07 < onekopaka> I don't like sleeping because you're missing out on time you could be being productive
07:08 < hiemanshu> Exactly
07:13 < onekopaka> fp.o/wiki performs well http://fpaste.org/paste/15739
07:13 < onekopaka> in apache bench
07:13 < onekopaka> well I gotta take a shower
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07:35 < onekopaka> so
07:36 < onekopaka> it's horrendous having all these links to wiki pages as full URLs
07:36 < hiemanshu> What are you trying to do? I cannot understand
07:37 < onekopaka> some people think that writing URLs like https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SomePage is okay
07:37 < onekopaka> those should be
07:37 < onekopaka> [[SomePage]]
07:37 < hiemanshu> Yeah
07:38 < onekopaka> makes it flow better
07:38 < onekopaka> so that lock or arrow on the page doesn't intrude
07:38 < hiemanshu> Yes
07:38  * hiemanshu is off to smoke
07:39 < onekopaka> mhmm
07:44  * hiemanshu is back
07:45 < onekopaka> mmkay.
07:45 < hiemanshu> You need help with anything now? Will be here for an hour or so
07:46 < onekopaka> I don't know
07:46 < onekopaka> if you could just look around some pages and check for those horrendously long wiki URLs
07:46 < onekopaka> that'd be great
07:46 < hiemanshu> Sure
07:47 < onekopaka> I actually need to get in bed
07:47 < onekopaka> my alarm goes off in ~5:30
07:49 < hiemanshu> no problem onekopaka, hope to see you in the meeting
07:49 < onekopaka> I'll be in the meeting ~15 minutes late
07:49 < onekopaka> I have it all caluclated
07:49 < onekopaka> ICK
07:49 < onekopaka> terrible spelling!
07:49 < onekopaka> calculated*
07:49 < onekopaka> so
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07:49 < onekopaka_away> Away!
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07:51 < hiemanshu> Bye
07:51 < onekopaka_away> screen saver activate!
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13:15 < hiemanshu> What time is the meeting?
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16:04 < hiemanshu> When is the metting?
16:04 < hiemanshu> meeting*
16:06 < ricky> hiemanshu: Hey, it's in one hour
16:07 < hiemanshu> Great u dint know what time it was :(
16:07 < hiemanshu> i dint*
16:08 < hiemanshu> Hopefully client would let me free by that time
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16:47 < hiemanshu> ricky, ping me when it is going to start
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16:49 < ricky> hiemanshu: sure thing
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16:55 < markg85> when are we going to start? 5 minutes or 1 hour 5 minutes?
16:55 < ricky> In 5 minutes :-)
16:55 < ricky> mchua: ping
16:56 < markg85> oke
16:57 < mizmo> in #fedora-meetng right?
16:58 < ricky> We're actually going to be in here because the OLPC SIG has an entry for this time slot
16:58 < ricky> (at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting_channel)
17:00 < ricky> Well, it's 17:00 UTC
17:00 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Who's here?
17:00 < ricky> hiemanshu, markg85, mizmo, ianweller, mchua, onekopaka_away, nb, anybody I forgot: ping
17:01 < nb> oh
17:01  * nb is here
17:01  * nb forgot about the meeting
17:01  * markg85 is here
17:01  * hiemanshu will be here in 5 mins
17:02 -!- mchua_ [n=mchua@host232.155.212.137.conversent.net] has joined #fedora-websites
17:02 < ricky> mchua_: Hey
17:02 -!- mchua [n=mchua@nat/redhat/x-f7551ede865e4856] has quit Nick collision from services.
17:02 < mchua_> hey, sorry I'm late; took a while to reconnect to wifi.
17:02 < mchua_> can someone pastebin me a backlog?
17:02  * mchua_ pulls up task list
17:03 < ricky> mchua_: http://dpaste.com/57245/
17:03 < mchua_> thanks, ricky
17:03 -!- mchua_ is now known as mchua
17:03 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Release
17:03 < ricky> Everything went pretty smoothly with the release
17:04 < ricky> We tried a new way of working with git branches, which worked out really well :-)
17:04 < mizmo> hi
17:04 < mchua> hey mizmo!
17:04 < ricky> The one hitch was that there were some docs links that weren't right on release day, so we had to do last-minute fixing :-/
17:04 < ricky> Next time, I'll send out "please check this website" emails to websites, docs, and design lists.
17:05 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Task List
17:05  * ricky hands it over to mchua 
17:05 < mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks#The_list
17:05 < mchua> so, people did check their email, and the list should be all up to date :)
17:05  * mchua is new, and begs pardon for the many questions and the learning on the job
17:06 < mchua> but before we all start getting busy again, i was wondering if the team had any targets for f12 - what do we want to accomplish this round?
17:06 < mchua> reading through the list, a lot of things seemed scattered to me, I couldn't tell where it was all going, but I may be missing something
17:07 < mchua> ricky, mizmo, ianweller, quaid, jonmasters... folks who have been around here longer, any thoughts of where we're headed?
17:07  * hiemanshu pardons for being late
17:07 < ricky> My main goal is to get join.fp.o much more friendly.  That'd be a big gain.
17:07 < hiemanshu> ricky, i would rename that as Noob proof
17:08 < hiemanshu> We have people asking us stuff in #fedora that can be found on the site
17:08 < ricky> Ah
17:08 < hiemanshu> for example people asked for links for x86_64
17:08 < ricky> Having join info at fp.o would be nice also because it would be translated.
17:09 < ricky> Ah, x86_64 downloads are another issue we'll have to think on for F12 :-/
17:09 < markg85> ricky, isn't the only thing missing on j.fp.o a clear description of what those category's mean?
17:09 < mizmo> this is really hard to do without understanding what exactly fedora is meant to be
17:09  * mchua agrees with n00bproof join.fp.o, but isn't sure exactly what that means
17:09  * giarc shows up late
17:09 < ricky> mizmo: Sorry, which part were you referring to?
17:10 < mizmo> ricky: are we a distro for developers or are we a 'consumer desktop' distro
17:10 < ricky> I think n00bproof is too strong a term, even.  I can see how a page like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join could be confusing to anybody.
17:10 < mizmo> ricky: the difference between those two is a difference of a million miles in the approach to take for fpo
17:11 < hiemanshu> ricky, we should have explain as though you were teaching a 8 year old
17:11 < ricky> hiemanshu: Based on what you've seen in #fedora - what kind of person do you think wants x86_64 downloads?
17:11 < hiemanshu> ricky, people who just want to try those
17:11 < hiemanshu> The thing is the links are not on the get-fedora page, which should have been there
17:12 < mchua> hrm.
17:12 < hiemanshu> you need to click another button and people ignore that and waste more thing getting that question answered
17:12 < hiemanshu> it should be made obvious to people
17:12 < mizmo> hiemanshu: what kind of people are these? these are technical people no?
17:12 < ricky> Can we profile each specific type of user into more categories than just "developer vs. consumer" ?
17:12 < mchua> so, I'm not sure if this would be a useful metric at all, but https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Brainstorms#j.fp.o_experience was one thing I've been thinking of.
17:12 < hiemanshu> mizmo, non technical
17:12 < mchua> "one possible effectiveness metric for our website might be the number of contributions each release gets from new contributors (i.e. contributors whose first contributions were in that release) - in other words, "does join.fp.o work"?"
17:12 < mizmo> hiemanshu: you're telling me a non-technical person insisted on x86_64?
17:13 < hiemanshu> mizmo, yes
17:13 < mizmo> hiemanshu: if i mentioned the word 'x86_64' to my mom, she would be like, 'huh?'
17:13 < mizmo> hiemanshu: so on the scale of my mom <=> linus torvalds, what do you mean by "non-technical"? because i think we have very different definitions
17:13 < hiemanshu> mizmo, people how have some idea or heard from friends want 64 bit OS just because they have a 64 bit proc
17:13 < mizmo> hiemanshu: the very fact the person was talking to you in IRC right away tells me they are at least a little technical
17:14 < mizmo> hiemanshu: this was in IRC, right?
17:14 < hiemanshu> mizmo, non technical means who does not want to try to get this way around
17:14 < hiemanshu> yes
17:14 < mizmo> my mom doesn't know how to use IRC or even what it is
17:14 < mizmo> hiemanshu: can you reword that? im not sure what you were trying to say
17:14 < hiemanshu> there way*
17:14 < ricky> I'm slightly confused at how somebody knows enough to be aware that there is an x86_64 version, but doens't click the "show me all options" link.
17:15 < ricky> Maybe the wording is confusing?  Should that link be "show me all options" instead of "show me all options on one page" ?
17:15 < hiemanshu> mizmo, according to me a Non Technical user is one who knows he has a computer and a OS, but does not know what to when he has problems and comes to IRC
17:15 < mizmo> well we could make the show me all options stuff more obvious
17:15 < hiemanshu> ricky, below download link add looking for x86_64, find it here
17:15 < mizmo> hiemanshu: okay that's a very big difference in my definition of a non-technical user, who is someone who has a computer perhaps but who doesn't know how to use IRC and just wants to try out linux
17:16 < mchua> so... wait, hang on a second. before we get into the definition of a nontechnical user looking for x86_64 stuff, maybe we should figure out what improvements we want from the website this release.
17:16 < ricky> hiemanshu: That would very possibly be confusing to somebody that doesn't know whether they need x86_64 or not though
17:16 < mchua> hiemanshu, it sounds like you want to make sure folks looking for 64-bit stuff can find it.
17:16 < markg85> Just a crazy idea but what if the download page in done in a question like way?
17:16 < hiemanshu> Make every thing _obvious_ so we dont have people asking us stuff
17:16 < markg85> for example:
17:16 < giarc> if x86_64 is too hard for some users to find, couldn't we just add a lozenge like we have for KDE etc?
17:16 < mizmo> mchua: i think the goal should be, for get.fpo, keep the newb-focused stuff the same, but make the 'more options' link way more obvious
17:16 < markg85> Do you have more than 3GB of memory? (x64)
17:17 < mizmo> giarc: if we added a lozenge for everything people have asked for a lozenge for, the lozenge list would be longer than richard stallman's beard
17:17 < markg85> then download that x64
17:17 < mizmo> markg85: i dont even know how much ram is in my laptop
17:17 < mchua> it's hard to figure out what words like "obvious" and "intuitive" and "user friendly" mean.
17:17 < markg85> mizmo, ^_^
17:17 < ricky> giarc: That's another possibility, but it'd quickly get complicated, because then we'll have to account for KDE x86_64 live media too
17:18 < hiemanshu> markg85, i586 with PAE supports 64GB ram
17:18 < mizmo> mchua: okay make the more options link more prominent and eye catching, is that better than 'obvious' ? o_O
17:18 < hiemanshu> RAM*
17:18 < mizmo> hehe
17:18 < giarc> mizmo, heh, sure...but we *can* continue to say no to all the other requests
17:18 < ricky> Then there will be two links that match somebody that wants the KCD x86_64 live media.
17:18 < markg85> hiemanshu, ... true
17:18 < mchua> mizmo: way better. :)
17:18 < mizmo> giarc: what makes x86_64 more important than all the others?
17:18 < giarc> ricky, had not thought of that
17:18 < giarc> mizmo, nothing, just that seems to be a constant complaint
17:18 < mchua> mizmo: making it prominent and eye catching so that people who want the non-default dl option will be able to find it, I reckon?
17:19 < mizmo> giarc: the others are constant as well :)
17:19 < mizmo> mchua: yep
17:19  * markg85 would still like to point to this option: http://fedora.mageprojects.com/
17:19 < hiemanshu> My aim to decrease people asking the same stuff on #fedora by making it Obvious
17:19 < mchua> markg85 also had a cool idea with the questions-based page, which I'm guessing has a similar motivation... letting people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place.
17:19  * giarc needs to run for 5 mins ( boss bellowing for me )
17:19 < mizmo> markg85: huh? you're saying we shold go from having 2 links where people complain about not having others, to having one link? and how does that help exactly?
17:19 < hiemanshu> and add a documentation link before download actually starts
17:20 < mchua> hiemanshu so, reducing repetitive questions on #fedora. which you see the x86_64 thing crop up on a lot?
17:20 < mizmo> i think it's okay to have a questions => link for the non-default download page, but not for the front download page
17:20 < ricky> mchua: One general problem we've had with websites is that we don't have a clear decision making process.  That's one other area I'd like to improve.
17:20 < mchua> ricky: I'm starting to understand what you mean by that. :)
17:20 < hiemanshu> mchua, not only those, those are once in a while, but make them so obvious that an 8 year old can download it
17:20 < mizmo> hiemanshu: we have documentation links before the download starts. see the grey 'resources' boxes next to each link?
17:21  * mchua frantically trying to summarize things people want to work on
17:21 < mizmo> we provide the install guide, release notes, and a link to the full docs site
17:21 < hiemanshu> mizmo, i mean people to get-fedora page and start downloading and overlook those resources
17:21 < ricky> mchua: It's tough, because on one hand, we don't want any suggestion to instantly go live, and on the other hand, we don't want suggested changes to completely fall to the side.
17:21 < mizmo> hiemanshu: that is on the get-fedora page.
17:21 < markg85> mizmo, all i'm saying is that it would be a nice idea to have the most common options appear at the download page. If that's like my idea on that link or just 2 seperate links... both will do fine i think
17:21 < markg85> separate
17:22 < hiemanshu> mizmo, change them a little so that people will first click a link where it make it _obvious_ then another link to start download
17:23 < mizmo> hiemanshu: that doesn't make sense to me, though, because you said that people were complaining about having to click another link to get to x86_64. but to me, it sounds like you are suggesting forcing everyone to click another link to get links to documentation?
17:23 < mizmo> i guess i'm simply just not following
17:23 < hiemanshu> mizmo, you have got me wrong
17:23 < markg85> another think i would like a lot is just by looking at the user-agent of the user visiting the download page then select a default download architecture based on that
17:23 < mizmo> it sounds like you are suggesting:    get-fedora => documentation links => download link
17:23 < mchua> okay, uh... hang on. I want to see if I'm hearing everyone correctly here.
17:23 < mchua> mizmo wants to help people who want the non-default dl option find the non-default dl-option by making it more prominent and eye-catching.
17:23 < markg85> the user agent tells the architecture so why not use that valuable info
17:23 < mchua> markg85 wants to help people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place.
17:23 < mchua> hiemanshu wants to reduce repetitive questions on #fedora (example: x86_64) by making resources that 8-year-olds could use.
17:23 < hiemanshu> get-fedora =>Docs link =>15 sec delay to download
17:24 < mizmo> markg85: how do you know the user is downloading the image for the same computer they have the browser open on?
17:24 < mchua> ricky wants to have a clear decision making process on the websites team that balances ease-of-experimentation with moderation to make sure changes are good ones.
17:24 < mizmo> markg85: in many situations someone is trying to download a linux image for a machine that is broken.
17:24 < mchua> and I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on. :) and raise the number of new contributors in this release through improving the website.
17:24 < ricky> I'm kind of against going by the user agent.  That can cause major confusion if I go to the library to download Fedora, for example
17:24 < markg85> mizmo, well the same can be asked for the situation as it currently stands. you just don't know
17:25 < mizmo> markg85: right which is why it's better to have the user select than auto select it for them and get it wrong.
17:25  * mchua wonders if we agree on the purpose and audience of the design details we're debating about...
17:25 < hiemanshu> mizmo, where there is a download now button add another button download x86_64
17:25 < mizmo> markg85: if the page changes based on the machine you're on, then it becomes more difficult for folks like hiemanshu to help people because they may not even be looking at the same page anymore
17:25 < mizmo> mchua: i think we really need to start there
17:25 < hiemanshu> and below that why x86_64
17:26 < markg85> mizmo, true
17:26 < mizmo> i do not want to add more buttons to the main get fedora page.
17:26 < mizmo> there are enough as it is.
17:26 < mizmo> we worked really hard to simplify it down to where it's at now.
17:26 < mizmo> i think the problem with get fedora
17:26 < mizmo> is that it's difficult for more technical users to use.
17:26 < ricky> If the x86_64 link on get-fedora is as prominent as the 32 bit one, you will almost definitely get new questions in #fedora asking whether people need 32 bit or 64 bit.
17:26 < ricky> I've seen that myself back when get-fedora was http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-all
17:26 < mizmo> so i think our goal for f12 should be to address the 'view more options' so that it's easier to find for those users.
17:26 < hiemanshu> ricky, that why i said a link below to a page why x64
17:27 < markg85> mizmo, my issue with getting f11 x64 was that it's currently guesswork to even find it
17:27 < mchua> uh... folks, before we start talking about specific implementation ideas, can we take a step back and breathe a little and figure out where everyone is coming from?
17:27 < mizmo> markg85: exactly. so we shold make the full page of 'other options' easier for you to find
17:27 < ricky> hiemanshu: Nobody ever clicks those links.  If anybody bothered to click the install guide linnk first, all their questions would be answered.
17:27 < mchua> I'm feeling a bit like I'm watching ships pass each other in the night right now...
17:27 < mizmo> markg85: eg we could have a button that says, 'View more options (x86_64, ppc, KDE, and more)'
17:27  * giarc is back, ( june birthdays here at work... )
17:28 < mchua> hey, giarc. discussion is a bit scattered at the moment. I'm trying to keep up with all the threads. :)
17:28 < hiemanshu> ricky, yeah that could be one thing, people just dont want to read
17:28 < ricky> mizmo: Ooh, that's a good idea.
17:28 < markg85> mizmo, that's yet another possible idea
17:28 < mizmo> ricky: yeh we could do them in fine print
17:28 < ricky> Yeah.
17:28 < mizmo> ricky: so people looking for the keyword 'x86_64' would skim and it would jump out at them
17:29 < ricky> As it is, I'm not crazy about grouping KDE and PPC together :-(
17:29 < mizmo> ricky: then we avoid having a matrix of the combinatorial options on the front page, but at tthe same time the keywords the technical users are working for are there
17:29 < giarc> mizmo, sort of like a tag cloud?
17:29 < ricky> Yes, that's good.
17:29 < hiemanshu> Yes thats better
17:29 < mizmo> giarc: sort of. i wouldn't do the different font sizes the way a tag cloud is though.
17:29 < mizmo> giarc: they should be consistent
17:29 < markg85> a reason why people don't look at the install guide (didn't look at it myself so just guessing here) is that there is so much text in it that it scares people away
17:29 < ricky> I agree with markg85 
17:29 < giarc> mizmo, right, ok
17:29 < mizmo> people don't want to read text on get.fpo. they want to get f. :)
17:29 < hiemanshu> markg85, +1
17:29 < mizmo> any solution that involves users reading more text = FAIL
17:30 < hiemanshu> people hate to READ
17:30 < ricky> Here's a sad fact:
17:30 < markg85> i personally always move away from pages that have way to much text :P
17:30 < ricky> The table of contents of our install guide: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/ is about as long as the entire openSUSE Live CD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_Live_CD
17:30 < markg85> specially if they start with a bunch of notices at the top
17:30 < mizmo> yet people keep propposing we add more text ot the screen :)
17:30 < ricky> And their install guide is filled with screenshots too.
17:30 < ricky> I want an install guide like that :-)
17:30 < mizmo> ricky: that's insane
17:30 < ricky> (And here's their DVD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_DVD_Install)
17:30 < hiemanshu> ricky, i could try that
17:31 < ricky> To anybody interested on working on something like that: Please make sure to talk to the docs team first
17:31 < ricky> I wouldn't want to start any documentation projects without letting them know and hearing their thoughts on it first.
17:31 < hiemanshu> ricky, i ll do this part, i ll write the install Docs with Screens
17:31 < giarc> ricky, wow, that is striking
17:32 < mizmo> the docs team is planning a new system for displaying the docs
17:32 < markg85> ricky, well.. you can make all the screenshots prior to making the documentation..(or not?)
17:32 < hiemanshu> markg85, you can
17:32 < markg85> hiemanshu, if i install fedora i might just do that :D
17:32 < ricky> markg85: Making the screenshots shouldn't be an issue, the main thing would be communicating to the docs team about this
17:32 < hiemanshu> markg85, we can take this up together. what say?
17:33 < markg85> hiemanshu, ask me again after my exams in just over one week
17:33 < mizmo> okay so, so far our goals for f12 are:
17:33 < mizmo> - make get.fpo better for technical users
17:33 < ricky> mizmo: Do you know if they're looking at changing the format of the docs, or just the infrastructure for the docs site?
17:33 < mizmo> - makes docs.fpo better
17:33 < mizmo> ricky: not sure :( i would imagine both
17:33 < ricky> Hopefully :-)
17:34 < mizmo> do we have any other goals for f12
17:34 < mizmo> i have one :)
17:34 < mizmo> - improve www.fpo. it's a bit sparse right now. we could have a bit more information on what fedora is and why you'd want to use it. a section with profiles of real fedora users with picutres
17:34 < markg85> mizmo, just wondering.. are there plans for a new decoration theme in fedora 12?
17:35 -!- mchua_ [n=mchua@nat/redhat/x-ffcdfe22a665039d] has joined #fedora-websites
17:35 < ricky> - Get a decision-making process that we can stick to :-)
17:35 < hiemanshu> mizmo, a user gallery
17:35 < mizmo> markg85: what do you mean by decoration theme?